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Raptors crumble against Nuggets

MICHAEL GRANGE

From Monday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 10:54 AM EST 25/03/08

Bosh calls out teammates for passive play after Toronto falls for 11th time in past 14 games Sunday against Denver ...Read the full article

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  1. Rich Chan from Vancouver, Canada writes: Oh goody, I'm the first poster today. Interesting game. We lost, but it was good for a change in that we lost with Jose in the 4th than getting frustrated with TJ in the last few minutes. Good game all-around despite the loss.
  2. Roger S from Canada writes: This game again demonstrated Raptors are not well coached. The players were not told what to do when opponents started to deny the ball to Bosh, this was no game plan when 1st option is off, the shot selection was nowhere. Coaching stuffs and TJ Ford are the biggest liabilities of this Raptors team, time is up for BC to address the weakness.
  3. Roger S from Canada writes: Fire Sam Mitchell and Trade TJ Ford.
  4. Bubba The Pas Huskies from The Pas Manitoba, Canada writes: Rojer, your ongoing dogma is wearing thin. TJ was not a negative factor in this gig, nor was Smitch outcoached. The team was outplayed. Period. The Nuggets had more studs, more attitude, and wanted the win. Their bigs were bigger than ours. Tip your hat to a better team rather than whining.
    We didn't want the game more than the Nuggets. We didn't outhustle, outrebound,better defend or make the big shots when needed. We had no other goto guy other than Bosh. And even Bosh (even with his numbers) was invisible in comparison to Iverson, Anthony and Camby. By invisible I mean he didn't lead in lifting his team mates to higher levels. That could mean that either his mannerisms don't have the effect you want or that the Raps don't have the horses to rise to higher standards that better teams have. Either way it shows the limits we have in this team. You see it in other sports and in other teams in the NBA, teams that have a player(s) that 'spark' their teammates. We don't seem to have that in this team. How do you manufacture that????
  5. Mike G from Waterloo, Canada writes: I was at the game, and the Raptors gave up some terrible steals in the final minutes that were converted to points by Denver. You cant usually stop guys like Iverson but today they didnt have to, with leads at various points of the 3rd and 4th quarters they just had to play their game and the Nuggets got them to slip up.
  6. albert strauss from Toronto,Ontario, Canada writes: At every level of play we were instructed to follow up onthe rebound of our "outside" shot. The theory was (and I believe still is ) that the shooter is the most likely person to snag the rebound. Why does Bargnani always just turn his back and walk away after a miss? No second effort to regain possession. Does he have different laws of physics or simply not care?
  7. D W from Halifax, Canada writes: Bubba The Pas Huskies from The Pas Manitoba, Roger may be repetitive, but he's right.

    You may have watched the game and simply never realized what you saw....here are the stats.

    Calderon 5
    Ford -14

    When do you think the Raps lost the game? It wasn't when Calderon was on the floor.
  8. lost ontarian from Canada writes: Some things just aren't as complicated as they may seem. A team that is reliant on dumping the ball low post at critical moments must have a back up plan. The pass in to Bosh is often a money play, then he gets double -teamed and it is less effective. The breakdown is that it takes TJ too long to get the ball into Bosh and even when they do get the ball to Bosh early, he becomes hesitant on the double-team and dips and twists and spins waisting shot clock ticks and allowing the remaining defenders to adjust to the open guys. Smart teams leave Moon open and that's why we see so many clear opportunities for one of our lower ranked shooters. Bosh must read immediately the double team and identify when Parker, Kapono or JC are open on perimeter and hot them quick. Then and only then is this offence functional. But dishing out with 3 or 4 seconds on the clock limits the perimeter guys.
  9. albert strauss from Toronto,Ontario, Canada writes: Lost Ontarian :- All you say is absolutely correct. It should be naturally part of a back-to-the-basket low post players moves. You should not have to point it out to the coach and player at this level. THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE RAPTORS. THEY SEEM TO KNOW NOTHING AND THE COACH IS NOT TEACHING ANYTHING. Very frustrating for a willing fan particularly one who has played even though at a much lower level
  10. j s from rapland, Canada writes: Does anybody think that the Nuggets would have won if they sat AI for an additional 10-12 minutes? No way. They needed him on the floor for the whole 42 minutes that he played (and that's his season average).

    TJ played fine yesterday, but every minute TJ plays takes away from time that Jose could be on the floor. And the Raps need Jose not because he is a better player (that is for everyone to argue about) but because he is a much, much better leader than TJ. And as someone pointed out above, this team desperately needs leaders. When Jose is on the floor his teammates play better. It's not about Jose's stats vs TJ's stats, it's about the team. When Jose plays 40 minutes the raps have a way better chance to win than when he plays 30-32. Again, not a knock at TJ, whom I would love to see succeed elsewhere in the league, but an observation that reflects the way things have been the entire season.

    Having said that I'd sure love to see Jose learn something from AI about stepping up as a scorer. Jose is the best shooter on the team and he can get his shot whenever he wants. he should be taking 15-20 shots a game as well as distributing the ball.
  11. andy c from Canada writes: missed both the clevland and denver game. i've supported most of BC's moves since he arrived in toronto but if he does not do something to improve the team before the next trade deadline with all the expiring contracts coming up that support will waver considerably. this team has not had a legit/consistant 1 - 2 punch since vince and AD.
  12. Jason J from Markham, Canada writes: Toronto is being outcoached!

    Why did SMitch put TJ on court for so long? It's painful to see the hard-earned lead being eroded when TJ plays.

    Why did SMitch put AB on court for so short? Especially AB played great in the first quarter. And not put AB back in the fourth quarter when Raptors fell behind? Whiel SMitch put Kapano back expecting 3s!!!

    And watching Kapano becomes painful - he neither shoots the ball, nor play defence, or can't defence. Have to trade him with TJ out together, simply because they two are obvious buddies ...
  13. Stevie Dee from Canada writes: Was at this game too. Can't believe that I'm saying this, but Roger raises a very valid point; in the 4th Denver doubled Bosh immediately and nobody (Rasho, Parker, Moon) could hit the open shot when he dished it out. On the other hand, SMitch had Parker on AI and Moon on Melo with no help down the stretch. End result, Raptors couldn't score and the 1-2 punch for the Nuggets were able to score all the points in crunch time. Bottom line, the Nuggets are a legit force and the Raptors couldn't compete. I mean, really guys, do we think that our lineup can compete with a team that is so complete. They've got it all. They've got two all-stars to lead the scoring from both the guard and forward spot and two big-time rebounders to clean up the garbage. As for the ongoing TJ debate, I think that part of the problem is the lineup that is on the floor with him. Really, there is absolutely no movement in the second lineup. He had Rasho, Kapono and I don't remember the other two out there with him (Delfino in the first half). For much of the time yesterday Bosh and Parker weren't there as scoring options for TJ. Having said that, I would like to see more ball movement out of him earlier in the clock. And much as I like the immediate improvement that Collangelo's moves made, Kapono is looking more and more like a brutal signing. Particularly because SMitch seems incapable of actually diagraming an offense to get him shots. The Raps have no stuctured offense to speak of and this is why they lose so many close games IMHO. Finally, I said earlier in the season that it would hurt the Raps that they are trying to split playing time too many ways and that a rotation hasn't been settled on and I really believe that this is the case. I know SMitch is fond of saying that players determine playing time, but this is getting ridiculous. Positives in the game: Moon played a great game on the boards. Bargs looked good (but still got the hook).
  14. Bubba The Pas Huskies from The Pas Manitoba, Canada writes: D.W. from Halifax, I agree TJ didn't have the points or the game that JC offers us. Problem is we can't have JC on the court for 48 minutes or anything close to it if the team is going to compete in the playoffs.
    I agree with Stevie Dee that a better team beat us. They are above us in the standings for a reason.
    I also believe TJ will be gone before next season and BC will again be adding numerous players to this team. As to Smitch, well, based on this year's team lack of competitiveness, his days are numbered as well...
    All that said, I still like the upside of this team with the team being built. Jose has improved his game tremendously and proved to many that he can and will lead this team. Bosh is a really good player, similar to Paul Pierce, but not a leader like Garnett, Duncan, Kobe, etc. We need stronger and multiple leadership on the team. AB, Parker and Rasho will hopefully stay, but the rest are trade bait...
    Enjoy the ride folks...
  15. andy c from Canada writes: Bubba; personally i would love to see rasho stay because he's played really well of late (from the games i've seen) but at that salary with one year remaining he's perfect trade bait. maybe if he gets bought out we bring him back at the vet minimum? unless the NBA decides to close that loophole.
  16. Bubba The Pas Huskies from The Pas Manitoba, Canada writes: I agree Andy C that Rasho will be wanted by a number of teams, including the Raps. His experience and backup role will become even more valuable to this team (e.g. Mutumbo, Thomas sorts) for the next couple of years. I don't think we have any other secondary bigs around that can do what he does. I don't know what the vet minimum loophole is about?
    But your right, bottom line is that if BC gets a deal that improves the team but includes Rasho, he's gone...
  17. Big Cayman from South Toronto, Canada writes: "As for the ongoing TJ debate, I think that part of the problem is the lineup that is on the floor with him." D W the plus minus statistic has been debated here before and has been actually used to support TJ over Calderon when Jose was playing with the second team so Bubbas point is valid. The second squad is only good when they are shooting a high percentage. But moreover the statistic seems to have better value in a win. Denver is also the far better team with multiple all star scoring machines and very athletic defenders who can out rebound any team in the league. Calderon can play 48 minutes when neither team is defending well unfortunately when you need to get opposing teams hot hands under control having Bargnani and Calderon on the floor is not going to get it done. This team is still not good enough to compete for a championship whether TJ is here or not. I disagee that Rasho should stay on this team he is too slow and his contributions are easily replaced and likely at a lower salary too. What is the point in carrying dead weight like Brezec and Martin? And if you can't develop Joey he needs to be cut loose too. The problem with Bargnani is that if you keep him because you think he will develop into something he's going to be worthless if he doesn't meet expectations and hard to move. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Bosh needs help inside the paint and he certainly doesn't have anything close to that now, and that's Colangelo's fault not Sam Mitchell's.
  18. andy c from Canada writes: Bubba; if you get traded and bought out by the team you were traded to you can return to your original team at the veteran minimum (pro rated). the Mavs were trying to do it with kidd and jerry stackhouse and the league did not look to kindly on it.
  19. Stevie Dee from Canada writes: Big C,

    I agree with you, as well as Rasho is playing, there is no way that the Raps are getting near the value that they need to out of that contract. And, ironically, everyone is on Bargs for his lack of rebounding...but his rebounding is on par (or even better) than Rasho at this point in his career. Honest question to you guys, what is it about Rasho's game that you think is noteworthy?

    Personally, I don't think that Barg's position is the problem, I think that he and Bosh can co-exist nicely. The problem is at the 3, where the Raps need a BIG upgrade on Moon. Moon's a nice find, and would look great coming off the bench for 10 minutes a game, but they need a nice solid rebounder / defender at that position to complement Bosh. As you rightly point out, with Barg's AND Moon there is no one inside to give a second scoring option, or challenge for offensive boards.
  20. One For All All For One from Canada writes: Actually Cayman - the plus minus was used last season to support Calderon over Ford. It showed that while Ford was better defensively, Calderon was better for the team overall. This was corroborated by the plus minus of Bosh and Calderon being higher than Ford and Calderon.

    I don't really see the issue with keeping Martin around - it's almost like having an NBA subsidized coach, and it was a one year contract in a year where we didn't need the cap room. Brezec isn't doing much, but neither was Dixon. Both are doing more than Fred Jones is.

    I certainly agree that Moon seems to be the biggest weakness. On offensive he brings a lousy jump shot, and on D, while he brings athleticism he can't take direction. Good for the price were paying but agreed, on a contender he won't cut it.

    Bottom line, were still a stud away from being a contender. Hopefully expiring contracts next year will help drum something up, and Bargs continues to develop (I have big hopes for his offseason training).
  21. Nolan Kerr from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Players that need to be kept: -Bosh -Calderon -Barganani Players that should be moved: -Ford (hot market for PG this offseason) -Kapono (we are not using the best 3 point shooter properly, sell while he has value) Players who should be kept IF THEY TAKE THE BALL TO THE HOOP!!! -Parker -Moon (especially since he is left open, DRIVE MOON, DRIVE!!!) -Delfino (great shooter, somedays) The rest of the team is in a bit of a limbo, they could be role players, or they could be packaged in a larger trade. Realistically the Raps have a lot of great role players and not enough starters. We MUST swing a larger deal or two this year. Bosh can't do it on his own. Think of the trade value of a package including FORD, KAPONO, RASHO and maybe another upand comer like Moon or even Hump. BC could swing a deal to get a star 3 that isn't afraid to slash to the hoop. BC and his team have done a great job finding diamonds in the rough and I'm sure can continue to do so. They need to cash in on that and package a few of them off to get a star to take the pressure off of Bosh. A Richard Jefferson type player would go a long ways on this team. In the mean time, listen to your coach and to Bosh and DRIVE TO THE HOOP!!!
  22. Big Cayman from South Toronto, Canada writes: You're wrong One, that's not how it went at all: *I* first brought the plus minus up for debate here to support Fords numbers and efficiency when he was the starter last year compared to Calderon's but I also poked holes in the argument for the same reasons brought up today. The argument on the Calderon side was that his numbers were elevated (NOT the plus minus) because he was in the game against opposing teams second squad, his plus minus was worse than TJ's then. NOBODY was arguing the plus minus combining 2 players, what you are referreing to was a counter argument regarding the Lenovo Stat which was itself criticized for other reasons. In anycase this is a point regarding the feasability of relying on the plus minus stat on its own (especially in a loss) like D W has done, and not a comment on the TJ/Jose thing.
  23. Big Cayman from South Toronto, Canada writes: I wouldn't trade Moon who plays with energy, can rebound and block shots, or Humphries, they earn their pay and can play coming off the bench. If Bargs can't show anything by the trade deadline next year he has to go. Give Martin a coaching contract and sign Brezec to a record deal but dead weight is of no use. I have not given up on Delfino or Kapono because they work hard on the court but they have not been the difference makers they should be and the status quo is unteneble...Matchup of the night Suns-Pistons, how am I ever going to get any work done.
  24. albert strauss from Toronto,Ontario, Canada writes: Here s one for you Brian:- How do you expect players to put out when there is no stable rotation to which to aspire. Your coach knows nothing about coaching. Not the basic fundamentals. We are almost at the playoffs and he is still jerking around playing with "minutes" for lollipops. It is preferable to have stability rather than perfection. Find an experienced old timer not this hysterical clown out of Harry Rosen s window.
  25. Nolan Kerr from Winnipeg, Canada writes: With a team built out of 2 guards, a star power forward and a heap of young or role players, what do you expect a coach to do??? Stick to the guy even though he is playing terrible or try somebody else? When you have a team full of role players and shooters what choice does he have but to try find the hot shooter.
    I can't agree with anyone out there who says this recent slump is Sam's or TJ's fault.
    The Raps are a work in progress. BC will be looking for stability, much like the Spurs have. Sam is staying, so is TJ. Besides, BC knows what price he paid to get TJ, and I'm sure he doesn't intend to sell when TJ's stock is low.
  26. Bubba The Pas Huskies from The Pas Manitoba, Canada writes: Thank God no one watches our every work world minute and be as ready to crucify us as we are with Smitch. I'm one to say 'see ya wouldn't wanna be ya' next year if the team continues in this malais. BUT. Every coach out there starts out with a whole host of issues and mannerisms. Not a lot of them out there that didn't have the school of hard knocks beat'm up somewhere along the way.
    Same with Smitch. The majority of coaches don't pull a Sloan or what's his name in LA, going long term with the same team. Smitch will need to move on to improve his own game, and the Raps will need to find a longer toothed sage to rekindle the team and move it forward.
    And he does wear a suit well.
  27. One For All All For One from Toronto, Canada writes: Cayman, this is the fun part.
    "*I* first brought the plus minus up for debate here to support Fords numbers and efficiency"

    Cayman, if you actually look it up, Calderon's numbers were better ( 40 versus 30 overall).

    And, if you take out the last 10 games when other teams weren't trying anymore, the difference expands to about 45 for Calderon.

    Furthermore, your argument about Calderon getting a boost from playing against subs countered when you factor in Bosh.

    Calderon Bosh = .113 per minute
    Ford Bosh = .033 per minute

    Taking out the last 10 games swings it even harder to Calderon. By this standard he was the better PG, and frankly thats confirmed by this seasons numbers.
    If you check out 82 games
  28. j k from Canada writes: My god..did the TJ supporteres not watch him jog down the court as Iverson streaked down and scored?? Or Anthony Carter? If TJ is such a great defender, why is it that opposing guards always light up the Raps for 3s??..TJ never has a hand up defending..ever...and he is guaranteed to leave his man wide open at the 3 point line...
    His "quickness" is negated by his sloppiness...
    How can anyone be so stupid as to support wasting a roster spot on D Martin? If they want another coach they can make him a "coach"..and fat lot of good he is as a coach considering he has no credibility on court and the point guards are far beyond anything he has ever done. If he's the one telling TJ to look out for himself, not defend and b*tch about coming off the bench, who needs him? If he's NOT stopping TJ from doing those things, who needs him?? And if he's so valuable, why did they bring on Lucas, JUST to look out for TJ? if TJ can get his own "coach" why in the hell doesn't Bargnani have one, considering he is a much more legitimate candidate for help??
    The Raptors seem so concerned with getting "nice" guys for the roster that guys who can actually compete at an NBA level seems to be secondary consideration.....get Ruben Patterson for the remainder of the year!! Who cares if he's not "nice"...at least he might prevent the Raptors, Bosh and all, from looking like pathetic weaklings until we can get a few legit players for next year....hey, maybe his grit will rub off.
  29. Big Cayman from South Toronto, Canada writes: You really do have selective memory One, the debate was close to the beginning of the year, and ended there. No one was extrapolating or even cared to keep track of it, and in the end the plus minus stat can still be criticized as it was today for its same weaknesses and that was the point today. Its curious that a self professed statictician would throw out the last ten games and assume that the teams were not trying anymore. Its even more curious that you draw a deduction about who was the better PG last year based on what's happening this year, you may need to add more detail or better explain your conclusion...j k, what are you talking about? Bargnani does have his own coach, have you not heard of Maurizo Gheradini?
  30. Rich Chan from Vancouver, Canada writes: Debates about the Ford/Calderon situation began last year when, but it wasn't as evident as it is now, mainly because Garbajosa was bringing in defense and Bargnani was playing at an exceptional level, and TJ's deficiencies were being masked because everybody else was playing well. This year we don't have Garbo and Bargs isn't playing like he did last year, well, he's not making the shots that he made last year. Still, I wouldn't knock him as much as TJ because TJ shows too much inconsistency, is out-of-control on the drives and has very, very, very susceptible defense. You can't deny that stats don't show everything than actually watching a game, and everytime Ford walks in to replace TJ there's always a let-down in terms of scoring against.

    LOL, can't we actually waive Big C like TJ from this discussion thread. LOL

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